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Author Topic: A song type rope pot  (Read 240 times)

Stan

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2018, 03:37:03 AM »
Thanks Heavenguy, that gives me a start, I just posted a Song teapot with what appears to be dead bubbles, I hope that is what they are, it would give some age to the teapot, thanks again.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2018, 03:09:00 AM »
They use this process with other identification methods in order to verify if a piece of Chinese porcelain is fake or not. Of what I can tell, they cannot replicate dead bubbles yet. They can create a piece of porcelain with old techniques and kilns and have bubbles of different sizes, but they cannot replicate all the years of bubble aging and wear.

Of what I can tell, there is no book that will show you how all the bubbles look around the different dynasties, glazes, kilns, etc… What I do to have some type of idea is that I go to google translate and use it for example, to search for “yuan porcelain glaze bubble” and it will give me something like “元瓷釉泡”. Then i google that and google translate any website that looks interesting or show some type of image similar to my piece.

Now, I know that this is not to reliable or to scientific, but thats the best I can do for now without speaking mandarin or cantonese.

Also iron spot oxidation looks very different from recent or faked oxidation spots. The antique ones leave like a small almost gradient or hombre look the more to the outer part it goes. As far as I know, there is not much interesting parts for the actual porcelain, stoneware, or earthenware piece other than the obvious fake dirt they apply that can be actually be seen with the naked eye.

oh also, you can use the little transparent size chart to have an idea of the size of the bubbles in micro measurements. But without a list on the size of the bubbles, who knows.

Now, this is what I can imagine on how is done by using google translate. When you start using it, you will see that it will say a lot of nonsense but  I guess is better than nothing.

Let me know if this helps or not.

Good luck and have fun!!!

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2018, 03:08:46 AM »
Hey Stan,

The process it’s called “glaze bubble identification”. If I make a mistake, please correct.

Basically, when the glaze gets heated inside the kiln, the water vapor that leaves the glaze forms bubbles behind. Modern methods of using the Kiln and more modern Kilns produce very small and more in order glaze bubbles, (less random locations).

The antique Kilns produced, bigger bubbles of different shapes and sizes and in random locations. There is a correlation between dynasties and glaze bubbles. Of what I understood (using google translate), The bubble has a 3 stage life cycle.

1.- when its created
2.- The second is wear and use.
3.- is the dead of the bubble itself.

Basically, modern, republic and late qing will be on stage 1. but from mid qing and bellow, bubbles start to die because of stage 2. Technically, you expect to see some dead bubbles on some type of porcelain. If it shows a dead bubble, it probably means that is at least 200 years old. Now, not all antique porcelain shows dead bubbles but they will have bubbles of different sizes and such. Some antique glazes, especially the ones  fired in low temperature, don’t show bubbles at all, (example tang).

The bubbles, depend on the dynasty and each dynasty has its own material sources and the method of how they were produced. So if a piece is of a certain era, you expect to see or not see bubbles of certain sizes, dead bubbles, or shapes.

A dead bubble is a bubble that because of wear, heat or cold, or other damaging conditions, simply bursts. but before it dies, it can absorb or oxide, and change colors. When a bubble dies, it can also accumulate sedimentary particles, human finger oils, etc… some of this particles will change the color of the dead bubble.

A good example of this bubbles are the ones from the song dynasty "bubble cups" were you can see the bubbles without the need of a microscope. Another example of dead bubbles is something similar to this jar. Not really sure what happen, but I think it got stained with the iron oxide of the pot inside.  Kind of like when you stain a window without actually bursting the bubble.

Stan

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 11:10:08 PM »
HI Peter, and Heavenguy, I received my digital microscope  and have been using it on the antique porcelain so far I have not come across any dead bubbles but I am very pleased with the images it produces, the down side for me is I have a iMac computer and it will only work if I use photo booth and then it dose not have all the functions it would normally have if I had a Window's software computer, but the images produced for $23.00 are worth it, thanks for sharing, this is very interesting I would like to learn more about it, I can see the difference in bubbles from my Chinese export Qianlong to the early republic big deference in the look but I am still trying to figure out what I am looking for, thanks again for the information, the digital microscope that I purchased is called a Cooling Tech digital microscope for smart phone and USB computers, OOOOOP's I just found the name on a microscopic lable and used the microscope to see it "Jiusion 40 to a 1000x M...., the other name given is in the manual,

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 05:02:33 AM »
Okey, this explains a lot.

So basically this is some type of Qingbai jar that got damaged. When they repair it, they put a plastered paste on the inside and in the middle of the foot rim. Since it was fired at a more lower temperature, it became more porous and that is why it got this more of a reddish color on the bottom than on the inside of the jar. Also, since it got re-heated in a Kiln, maybe that made the jar more susceptible and got this crackle lines and dead bubbles over time, especially from one of the sides.

Thank you Peterp...

peterp

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 02:38:05 PM »
>a similar material but not in a very high temperature

I see we are on the same frequency now! That is what I was suspecting after seeing that other item. It could be that a repair or replacement had a different consistency, but from pictures alone it is impossible to see.
The other item just looked as if something was being covered, the bottom material did not appear to have been turned.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 11:02:30 PM »
also i don't see any wheel turnings on the bottom. i don't know if they must have or not.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 11:01:44 PM »
The walls of the inside kind of the jar look and feel the same way when touching the bottom of the foot rim. The less dirty part inside the jar, the middle, feels different, kind of hollow. Like if the plastered with a similar material but not in a very high temperature. You can see the difference in color in this photo

peterp

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2018, 10:50:15 PM »
Does the middle inside look/feel the same as the walls? Or is it rougher or more smooth, or in any way different? Can you scratch the bottom inside or outside?
What is odd basically is that the yellowish brown base has a different color than the unglazed interior, which looks normal.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2018, 10:43:15 PM »
forgot to mention that the more clean part of the inside bottom, seems a little raised from the rest. I made aa Draw that probably explains what I mean. Hope this helps.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 10:36:14 PM »
Here is the rest of the pictures hope they are better.

thank you for your help

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 10:32:15 PM »
Hi Peter,

I was looking at Qingbai vases and it seems to be closer to that type of wares. Was reading that they were most commonly exported to Japan and Indonesia. Decoration seems about right, and foot rim, it seems they had like tons of different ones, maybe for different markets?

Anyways, I kind of draw the foot rim and bottom to show an idea on how the look. The inside looks like it has the same type of material as the outside. What catches my attention is that the middle inside the jar is not as dirty as the rest of the bowl and you can actually feel a little bump indicating that the part on the middle follows the path of the foot rim, but not to deep.

I draw the foot rim and even if it is very small, it does have a line between the foot and the base of the foot. The blue lines I added to the drawing are like the lines or cuts they did to shape the foot. as you can see, even if very small it does has a small curved line dividing the foot from the bottom foot. The foot rim bottom is really flat. I don't feel any bumps or anything, it seems like a very clean cut.

When is more daylight I'll try to take better pictures of the inside and foot.

peterp

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 12:59:19 PM »
I just encountered a similar clay on an item picture that appears to be from the Yuan dynasty. The clay of the bottom was not right. On further inspection it seems that the bottom was covered with a secondary layer of clay or whitish plaster.

Maybe the explanation for the base of yours is similar. You could try clearing the dirt from a small part of the foot rim and adjoining area to check if there is a line between them. In the pictures below it looks as if the rim is only slightly higher than the area within the foot, and there is no corner where foot rim and base area meet. Is that right?
How does the interior of the pot look, and how large is it? Is it possible that another bottom was attached, judging by the traces inside? Or is it possible that a damaged bottom covered with some other material to allow continuing use of the item?

peterp

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 09:58:22 AM »
Hi, first the shape and base and material must always be right, before the decoration can be taken into consideration. Here the shape seems okay, but the foot shape and material is not. The clay material of the clay is visible on unglazed parts of an item, most often only the base.
If you find similar items, the base or foot rim must conform. This one does not have one of the unique features a Yuan dynasty foot rim. And the color of the unglazed, fired clay does not resemble anything I know from at least Song and later. You will have to find the kiln which made it. It might be Chinese, if it is from a less known kiln. When we speak of specific shapes, we usually talk about those of mainstream kilns. So, any of the major kilns of the Yuan dynasty or Jingdezhen may be unlikely.

heavenguy

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Re: A song type rope pot
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 01:04:19 AM »
HI Peterp,

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me understand and identify this object. Also thank you very much for asking your friend and if possible send him my regards.

I have read and read about bubble identification and as you say, there is no doubt that this jar is old. The problem is how old and from where. I kind of did my own research and found out the different elements of this vase and relate them to different periods. Like you said, they all point to different periods so it doesn't make any sense. My best guess putting all this elements together is that this jar could be late Yuan dynasty.

The first element is that in the yuan and southern song, it was kind of common to see this type of dead bubbles.

The second element is the glaze. Like you said the glaze is really common in Qing and ming dynasty. But Also, I read that some of this glazes started to be developed in the late Yuan giving a small chance to be Yuan.

The third element is the raised decoration. I was looking or researching this decoration as a rope, but most of the time is like you friend mentioned it all pointed out to before Song. It was a decoration common in tomb objects before song. I found one in a jar in a museum from the jin with similar raised decoration.

It wasn't until I started looking for raised decoration I found a website of a person who sells a yuan jar with an identical raised decoration in shape of a rope. She mentions that it's called beads of applied 'pearls of beads'. She reference a book "yuan and Ming Blue and White from Jiangxi, plate 8". Unfortunely that book is really expensive, so I cannot confirm this. Fortunely I found a similar Yuan piece in the Portland Museum. SO a quick search on "Blue-and-White Jarlet with Beaded Decoration and Two Ring Handles" give you the link to it. SO that is another point for Yuan.

The last element is the bottom. 4 days ago a was doing a search and found a very similar foot in Christies. But for the life of my I cannot find it anymore. It was reference as a Yuan. I know I cannot trust this type of auction houses completely but still, that may help suggest an age to wear to look for.

I was also thinking that it could be from another country but never found something similar on the shape, decoration, glaze, or foot.

I'm going to keep researching this as much as I can. I have learned so much just by researching this. I kind of forced me to read stuff I  consider boring to read but I kind of find it interesting now. Lol.

Thank you very much for helping me on this.