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Author Topic: Yongzhen Bowl  (Read 271 times)

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 01:49:11 AM »
thanks Peter

peterp

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 01:18:34 PM »
It is normal to see the bubbles more clearly on the blue color, but they are also present on the white areas, you just don't see them.  The images seem to confirm that there is not printing involved.

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2019, 04:34:05 AM »
Some more pictures taken on top of the magnifier.

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2019, 04:31:01 AM »
Hi Peter, Stan, and everyone,

I have just acquired a magnifier 20x, and use it to look at the bowl to see if there are bubbles on top of blue decoration. Please see attached some photos taken through the magnifier, including reign mark character Qing at the base, contour, line, flower leaf.

I think I can see more bubbles in the border region between blue decoration and white background. do you have any comments on the pattern, distribution, and size of bubbles relative to decoration/character?

I also found an article with some pictures on bubbles revealed in antique artefacts:  live.iop-pp01.agh.sleek.net/2015/12/18/bubble-signatures-revealed-in-antique-artefacts/

Thanks

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2019, 03:55:33 PM »
Hi Peter, I will definitely buy a good magnifier (10x or more) to get to the bottom of my query. Thank you so much for your help. I much appreciate your messages as I did have many questions after spending a considerable amount of time looking at the piece.

peterp

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2019, 08:17:24 AM »
Egg-shell porcelain is really thin. Being translucent does not mean something is of this type. Many items of the Qing dynasty are relatively thin and thus show the decoration on the other side when a light is put in or behind the item. Egg-shell porcelain looks to me as if one could break it with a thumb pressure.

If what you mention regarding the central flower is its 'non-even' or non-symmetrical decoration, with handpainted porcelain it is normal. Often several painters worked on the same decoration, each painting different elements. And, Chinese porcelain painting shows that the painters often are weak in view to proportions and perspective.

The top rim is usually glazed with Qing dynasty porcelain. Not sure what the reason for this could be. BTW, the top rim looks perfectly handpainted, in that picture. Again, it is necessary to check the glaze bubbles, etc.
Yes, rust spots are faked, with a good magnifier or microscope it is clearly visible, whether a rust spot grew out of the glaze or not.
The mark is hand-painted too. I would think they would print the mark if printing was involved.
I still can only tell you to show it to someone experienced for close-up inspection. I cannot see anything definitive that means it is printed. It possibly being made at a later time (late Qing, early republic) is a different matter. Depending on the quality of the porcelain and decoration it is sometimes difficult to decide.



hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2019, 01:43:59 AM »
Also the bowl is quite big, 25 cm in diameter, 12cm in height. It is thin (but not as thin as paper), and I am not sure whether it can be categorised as egg-shell porcelain, but one can just about see the decoration of the exterior from looking into the interior of the bowl, should there be enough light.

From my reading, "during the 1920-30 eggshell ware became an important part of the total production program in Jingdezhen with well over 3300 men occupied by 1928". I am not so sure whether this bowl could be old enough to belong to that period as, I quoted again, "Eggshell thin porcelain is still made up to this day but most of it is decorated with enamels. Most of the less expensive pieces have their borders added with transfer prints and only the main decoration is hand painted."

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2019, 01:29:49 AM »
Some more images (first and second) of the foot rim. I notice that the area within the foot rim is probably slightly deeper than the area surrounding the foot rim. Not sure if this indicates a fake, an error .....

In fact I have a couple of questions if that is ok. The decoration or the big flower at the bottom of the interior of the bowl (see third image) is not right at the centre of the bowl, is this normal that a painter makes this kind of, say, minor mistake?

And if you look at the mouth rim, there is deliberately NO glaze (see fourth image, and the first image in my previous message). Is this normal? Could this imply that the maker of this bowl intended to put a copper band around the mouth rim? I cannot think of any other reason for the bare mouth rim.

Regarding decoration, you are right that Yongzhen reign usually uses simpler decoration or with mono/polychrome drawing. This bowl's decoration is very dense relative to what I can see on the Internet and, for example, collections in the British Museum. I do not know Chinese, but my research found that the calligraphy is  萬壽無疆  which means "10 Thousand Long Live Without Border" = Living forever (I have seen the calligraphy in other pieces which are all polychrome). The main/big flower is, I think, Chrysanthemum which is associated with longevity/ long enduring in Chinese, but please correct me if you have a different opinion of the flower. And the Ruyi symbol around the mouth rim means "As you wish" in Chinese. There are 8 Buddhism symbols on the exterior, and from my reading Yongzhen is a "fan" of Buddhism...

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 12:50:14 AM »
Many thanks Peter for getting back. Please find attached some photos of the foot rim taken at around 45 degree.

As you wrote earlier, the bowl looks pristine. I cannot see any sign of age/imperfection at the foot rim nor the area within the foot rim (i.e. the area covering reign mark). However, over the entire surface of the bowl, I can only see three (3) Rust spots (or imperfection in the glaze, see first and fourth images) in the interior of the bowl. This leads to wonder whether a fake/new piece can be easily made to have rust spots so that they look old.

peterp

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 07:47:07 AM »
I have seen the breaks in some contour lines, but they are infrequent. If there is any printing it is likely only the lines and contours, while the fillings are often painted by hand.  That is one of the reasons why the glaze should be inspected with a good magnifier (10x or more). Brush strokes will usually look different from printed lines; the latter have an uniform width and should not show the tapering/thinning of brush strokes.
If the glaze is old, then you should see bubbles, and they should be on top of the blue decoration, within the vitreous layer.

I have never handled a BW porcelain item of the Yongzheng reign with such a decoration. Those I know were mostly domestic (China) use and relative simple painting. During the Yongzheng reign fencai porcelain became mainstream and what I see is mostly polychrome decorations.

You might want to upload a detail view of the foot rim, taken at an angle of about 45 degrees, showing its cross shape clearly, and also one of the area within the foot rim (also at an angle), showing any indents or imperfections in the glaze.

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 01:09:55 AM »
Many thanks Peterp for the helpful comment. Indeed I already have the bowl, and when I brought it to a specialist on the Antique Road Show programme in the UK recently, after looking at the bowl a minute or two, that person told me it was a very "good" print, and then he changed his mind to half print/half hand-painted. He said some of the lines are discontinuous (see first photo) and some tree branches coming out of the flowers are quite blur (see 2nd and third photos). But I am not quite convinced as overall I do not see repetitive/identical features (e.g. the leaves, the flowers, tree branches, lotus etc). I can also see the brush strokes on the calligraphy, reign mark and else where.

Would be helpful if you or anyone else in the forum could further comment on the magnified images attached.

Thanks again
Long

peterp

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 11:42:32 AM »
Looks as if it is painted by hand. Overall, it looks pristine, without any age or usage signs. It is difficult to tell anything from pictures with items of this type and quality. Honestly, I think chances that this is a real Yongzheng item are low, simply because there are few BW Yongzheng marked items in the market, and there are lots of Yongzheng fakes. If it was me I would not buy this for that reason. If you already have it, my recommendation is to wait until you perhaps find someone experienced near you who could do a glaze inspection with a magnifier.

hn2503

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Re: Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 04:25:32 AM »
And some more images.

Many thanks for your help

Long

hn2503

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Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2019, 04:22:31 AM »
Please find attached some more images of the Yongzhen Bowl

hn2503

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Yongzhen Bowl
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 04:15:26 AM »
Hi,

Please help me with this one.

Is this a new piece?

Is this hand-drawing or print?

I can provide more pictures if needed.

Thanks
Long