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Author Topic: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl  (Read 3890 times)

Stan

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #26 on: Feb 14, 2015, 00:39:14 »
Well I can say this for sure, it is the best article that I have read on double swirls and swirls from different periods yet, thanks Peter.

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #25 on: Feb 13, 2015, 16:49:13 »
Hello Peter, Its not that I dont want to accept its not ming, 20th century or 19th century. I am a novice collector and this giant bowl has attracted my attention. There are a lot of rare things on this bowl (fake or not) .I like to investigate it and try to find out its origin I will not take any conclusions because my knowledge in this area is not enough I can only point to the things I see or find on this bowl. I appreciate your input very much and I learn a lot of this. Attatched 2 extra photos that where made in detail. It seems this is green fluorite inside the clay. China seems to be a origin for green fluorite. I looked allready at the internet to see if there is any knowledge of green fluorite inside chionese porcelain but I cannot find directly. You know anything. As you proposed I will try to contact another expert here and ask him for his opinion and post the results. Thanks again for your patience and help. Greetings Jan

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #24 on: Feb 13, 2015, 10:01:11 »
My view regarding provenance is mentioned elsewhere in this website. But basically I am not fond of provenance, because there is a lot of treachery in it. Nothing is 100% sure when it comes to Chinese ceramics, even museums and international auction houses do have fakes, occasionally. And auction experts are humans too; they do not know it all. I made a test sending the same items to two different former auction house employees (different auction houses) for evaluation and the result was completely different. Why did they not agree?

Ah yes, and I am no expert, I'm just a collector who had to learn about ceramics the hard way, from Chinese sources. What I am doing is trying to make it easier for others. This said, I prefer to rely on my own knowledge, sourced in part from Chinese sources, including some research reports, etc. That is my way...what is yours?

The only thing I can recommend is to always get two or more opinions, and to go on to other items. In the future prove to your or our version of age may come around.
Acquire your own authentication knowledge and do not rely on others, that is best. I wish you luck with your quest and if it should come out to be from one of the periods you mention, it would indeed be a rare item.

Below is an image from a handbook for museum personnel in China, published by a government agency, for reference. It shows a few decorations that resemble each other, but in fact are all slightly different. Yours is one of the two top ones on the left. The corresponding  Qing decoration is not shown.

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #23 on: Feb 13, 2015, 09:47:29 »
Look, nobody says your item has no age signs or is new. That is a completely different matter. If you cannot accept that our view is that it may be 20th century, that is fine. We do not claim that our knowledge is perfect or all encompassing. After all, Chinese ceramics span over a thousand years, and hundreds of kilns.
Find a similar decoration that is authenticated by a specialist for the period you think this is, then you know what you have. You could then post the result here. That is the way we do it when we are not sure.

I just tell you that you should forget about this being Kangxi. The peony is not right for Kangxi. Let's see if you can find a swirl decoration like yours on a Qing dynasty item, and if possible one with the decoration on top of the rim, for my part I am always interested to learn something new. There are always exceptions.
But do not forget when looking for the swirl decoration, you need to find the one that is the same like yours "double swirl linked", not something like that shown on the Ming bowl you posted the link of.

And again, having a proper standard for comparison is important. So no commercial sites will do. I am no "expert" just a collector who has had the luck to learn some things directly from Chinese, here in the Far East. When you speak and read Chinese the sources are a bit different, and that is what this is all about. Helping people too removed from the primary sources of information in China to find information that is hard to get by. Here you will find things that you never hear of or read elsewhere, especially in the west. Accept it or not, it is your choice. It is everybody's own choice.


peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #22 on: Feb 13, 2015, 08:44:00 »
Obviously the two "swirl" type decorations you uploaded are different. The lower one is the one usual in the Ming dynasty. Obviously, the top one too, but as I mentioned, the top may not be the swirl ? I am talking about. These are not connected with each other, the are ending in the line below. They may be a stylization of waves or something else.

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #21 on: Feb 13, 2015, 01:08:23 »
Hereby also the swirl designs (2 different decorations) of the blue and white 'lianzi' bowl with Xuande mark and period (MING). See link mentioned before
www.alaintruong.com/archives/2009/11/08/15727760.html

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #20 on: Feb 13, 2015, 00:31:46 »
Thanks.I cleaned the bowl and bottom this afternoon and other things appeared, ironoxide. Also the rim is not straight extra photos 2

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #19 on: Feb 13, 2015, 00:28:25 »
Thanks.I cleaned the bowl and bottom this afternoon and other things appeared, ironoxide. Also the rim is not straight

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #18 on: Feb 12, 2015, 12:56:56 »
Perhaps I should mention another thing.
Not sure what your view is on this, but when comparing items it is recommend to use museum sites rather than commercial sites, simply because their items are more often researched in depth.
The major three (3) auction houses do have mostly authentic items online, but there are exceptions, unfortunately. This just to my personal view. 2nd tier and lower level auction houses are more likely to have items that are not authentic, simply because they do not have the specialists to verify them, or because of their commercial interests. The same is the case with many dealer sites.

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #17 on: Feb 12, 2015, 12:52:22 »
Now look at the two decorations of Sotheby's items (2nd and 6th links?). Do you see that the swirls (or whatever they are) are made up of outlines in a similar way as those of the Guangxu ones, shown in the image below; but instead of color there is a white core.
Are these lines not all individually ending downward in the white line running along the circumference of the decoration band? Which means, each is just an individual swirl. Do you see the difference between these and the swirls on your item, where there is just one line painted for the swirls, not outlines like those...?

Again, I do not know what those "swirls" in the Ming items depict, but they are reminiscent of another, earlier decoration type that is not connected at all.

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #16 on: Feb 12, 2015, 12:27:29 »
This is a Guangxu double swirl decoration. Each swirl unit has outlines in blue and is filled with a different color.

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #15 on: Feb 12, 2015, 12:25:00 »
I have looked at the linked items.
Alain Truong's site is mainly listing the items of various auction houses.
- 1st link to Doyle's item:  yes, this is a double swirl; is it 19th century? Not sure. It would be an exception of the "swirl" rule, if it is.
- 2nd link to Sotheby's item: not sure if this is a swirl variation, or if this is something else, like a stylized wave formation. This is apparently Ming. But this is still a double link, not a continuous link all around. I will explain below. This is different from what you have on your bowl.
-3rd link (Bonhams): there is no swirl decoration
- 4th link (Elite): this item looks new to me
- 5th link (1stdibs): (I would rather not say in public what I think of this, so in future, please do not post links to items like this)
The description says: "in the late Kangxi style" ... not sure if this means the style is Kangxi (1644-1722) or Guangxu (1875-1908), which is also called "Kangxi revival" by some. However, the decoration "style" resembles neither of the two, or any other "style" from the Qing dynasty. I wonder if this item would fit into any time before the late 20th century.
-6th link (Sotheby's): This is the same decoration as the 2nd link. See explanation below.
- 7th link: this is a different type of decoration
Term as used here:
"swirl" = ? in Chinese, which means usually a square shaped decoration.


Now to the details of this decoration. I think there is some misconception, we may talk of different things.
The swirl decoration of your item is the blue line. I tried to mark it here. It is a double swirl:

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #14 on: Feb 12, 2015, 01:58:00 »
PART 2/2 continued

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www.eliteauction.com/catalogues/111012/view.php?id=141
www.1stdibs.com/furniture/building-garden/planters-jardinieres/pair-chinese-export-large-blue-white-fish-bowls-jardinieres/id-f_494169/
PAIR Chinese Export Large Blue & White 'Fish Bowls'/Jardinieres

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/chinese-works-of-art-n08974/lot.166.html
A MING-STYLE COPPER-RED AND UNDERGLAZE-BLUE VASE
QING DYNASTY, 18TH / 19TH CENTURY
www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-large-blue-and-white-fish-bowl-5719648-details.aspx
A LARGE BLUE AND WHITE FISH BOWL
KANGXI PERIOD (1662-1722)


hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #13 on: Feb 12, 2015, 01:56:36 »
PART 1/2 Hello,

With Peters information I continued my research to look for equal looking giant bowls. It seems that its more a jardiniere than a fishbowl with Lotus blossom decoration. I tried to find pictures from blue white giant jardinieres/fishbowls with double swirl and fullswirl decoration from different ages (Ming to 19th/20th century). In the following list of links you will find my research (7 links)

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www.alaintruong.com/archives/2010/09/01/18951764.html
www.alaintruong.com/archives/2009/11/08/15727760.html
www.bonhams.com/auctions/15288/lot/6352/
Wanli Period


hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #12 on: Feb 11, 2015, 22:06:31 »
Peter, Thanks very much for the detailed explication. I will continue posting objects I find here in Belgium and The Netherlands and trying to give an identification by myself. Greetings Jan