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Author Topic: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl  (Read 3889 times)

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #11 on: Feb 11, 2015, 10:57:11 »
(part 2)
Generally, decoration elements may have exceptions, but to me the double swirl is one of the more reliable evaluation factors.
But, there were other decoration elements that draw doubt, on your bowl, which I did not mention. For example the decoration on the very top of the rim is difficult to account for in a traditional frame. That is not a common decoration on traditional Chinese porcelain.

Further, the size of fish bowls is also a question. As far as I know they were generally smaller in the old times, although there are exceptions.
What I recommend to do is to keep it and wait until you see a similar one that comes with age related information. We all have items that we keep for years because we are not sure what we have; that is the nature of collecting.  :-)

PS: The bowl in the pictures you uploaded could be late Qing to early republic, rather on the later side, in my view.

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #10 on: Feb 11, 2015, 10:55:47 »
(part 1)
First, you should understand that anything can be faked, including age signs, etc. The painted decoration is the part that is most easily copied. Everything to do with the fired clay body or glaze is a different matter. Even if there are age signs, they must be used together with other factors for evaluating age, never alone. There should always be a number of factors, including age signs being the first step in identification. The decoration is part of that too. On the other hand, if only a single verified factor is incorrect for a supposed era, then the whole cannot be from that era. There are a few factors that are almost absolute in denying a certain period or age.

This is something that I am writing up about right now. Some of the decorative elements will also be mentioned in the next ebook. But that is meant for intermediate level, which requires some prior knowledge regarding age signs. I am sure if that had been included in the current ebook, many readers would omit the age signs and jump to premature conclusions because of the more easily recognizable decoration elements. Age signs are the most basic and reliable evaluation factors, but not the only ones.

The item you display above has a colored double swirl band. During the Qing dynasty the swirls were interconnected all around, the colored double swirl is the only type I know of, that did exist. That is usually found on polychrome items from the late Qing dynasty (Guangxu reign), and later. 

The emphasis here is on "colored". In my experience the 'no double swirl rule' applies to underglaze blue porcelain even in the late Qing dynasty. I do not think I ever saw a Qing dynasty underglaze blue item with double swirl decoration, that was not in doubt.


hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #9 on: Feb 11, 2015, 01:35:42 »
Hello Peter, You are sure the expert but I cannot follow your reasoning. I read the ebook (which was very good) and from this I tookthe conclusion to focus first on age signs.

For the fishbowl, you only look for the double swirl decoration and not for the age signs!.

On the internet I found and equal swirl decoration (respected auctioneer) with the following details of an auction object. Why is the swirl possible in the ming period and then only in the 20th century period (nothing in between)??

Description auction object: Fishbowl yellow fondcolor en famille verte, deceoration with landscapes and royalty 19th century H 34 cm - Diameter 40,5 cm (attached pictures)

Thanks for your help, I am trying to get a better understanding of what I have to look for. I live in Belgium near the Netherlands and it seems that the dutch VOC (dutch east india company) imported a lot of chinese products here from the 16th and 17th century.

Stan

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #8 on: Feb 09, 2015, 03:33:32 »
People can say anything these days, and older folks can get confused as well, anytime you see a bottom like this, it should raise a red flag, the brown dirty bottom was added to make it look older than it is.

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #7 on: Feb 09, 2015, 02:59:34 »
Peter and Stan thanks very much. The only remarque I can make and the response didnt matter for the seller. It was a 60-65 year old man who sold me this bowl. I asked him if he knew where it came from and he told me it was bought by his mother and to him it was always in his family. So the maximum age should go back to around 1920/1930 If his mother bought the bowl as NEW condition. Greetings

peterp

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #6 on: Feb 08, 2015, 20:05:12 »
The swirl decoration Stan mentioned leaves three possibilities, Ming, 20th century Chinese, Japanese. Ming is out of question. Most of the decoration does look Chinese, so Japanese is unlikely. Leaves 20th century. I would say a few decades old, at the most.

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #5 on: Feb 08, 2015, 15:11:53 »
Any other opinions?

Stan

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #4 on: Feb 06, 2015, 02:46:32 »
I think the double swirl decoration near the top and the color blue would make this a later piece maybe 1st half of the 20th century, in my opinion.

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #3 on: Feb 06, 2015, 01:33:46 »
Extra photos

hoogenbosch67

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Re: Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #2 on: Feb 06, 2015, 01:32:33 »
Extra photos

hoogenbosch67

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Giant underglaze blue white fishbowl
« Reply #1 on: Feb 06, 2015, 01:29:46 »
Several age signs:

Please tell me if I am correct see photos:

Underglaze blue white fishbowl decoration Qing dynasty [ late qianlong ]

measures height 55cm width 60cm

Glaze contractions
Firing faults or rust spots
Cracks, scratches (large ones)
late qianlong blue color or kangxu blue color