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Author Topic: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter  (Read 4448 times)

Teunis van Eijk

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #21 on: Jul 10, 2015, 03:20:00 »
Good day,

It is very helpfull for me.

Fantastic!

Thanks very much.

Regards,
Teunis

peterp

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #20 on: Jul 08, 2015, 12:41:19 »
Modified instructions below. This is the official website of the National Palace Museum in Peking.

Thefinder

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #19 on: Jul 08, 2015, 09:47:13 »
Didn't worked.

Do you have anything else? Cause i dont like to go on web site that i dont understand. Thanks!

peterp

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #18 on: Jul 08, 2015, 09:04:06 »
www.dpm.org.cn/shtml/360/@/116805.html , pages 169, 171. Select the third item in the left white drop-down box. Then enter the page number in the blank box in the left top corner (besides "/208"), then click "go".
One of the pages also shows rust spots.
Please be aware that these pictures are showing items that are not contemporary to yours.

Stan

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #17 on: Jul 08, 2015, 01:19:32 »
Thanks for the additional pictures, late 20th century in my opinion.

Thefinder

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #16 on: Jul 08, 2015, 00:49:50 »
Here's the picture of the bottom. 

Can you show me a picture of bubbles you are talking please! Thank you!

Stan

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #15 on: Jul 07, 2015, 23:03:26 »
Thanks Peter.

peterp

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #14 on: Jul 07, 2015, 16:10:07 »
I do not know Stan. That requires research into the glazes, which I was unable to do in depth, yet.
What I know is that it is a quality matter, like with the clay. At times of higher production quality, like in the 18th century, the bubbles were smaller and more even than before and after that. In the 20th century, when modernization started, the bubbles were reduced until there were none anymore. I could not tell if that is due to the introduction of appliances or a change of material, although the glaze is different now.

Stan

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #13 on: Jul 07, 2015, 15:22:29 »
Hi Peter, could you tell us if the newer white glaze is more refined than the old, and if that is what makes the bubbles in the older white ground glazes or is the newer a different material completely?

peterp

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #12 on: Jul 07, 2015, 13:24:21 »
No, bubbles are in the glaze. Those indentations are caused by different things.

In my view the enlarged picture 118.jpg should show bubbles, if there were any in the glaze; and you would certainly recognize them as such, if there were any. Magnification should be sufficient in this picture. No bubbles means the glaze was made with modern methods, eliminating these. Only newer glazes have none at all.

Stan

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #11 on: Jul 07, 2015, 12:04:43 »
This looks printed as well but the blue is under the glaze and there appears to be bubbles in the white ground glaze.

Thefinder

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #10 on: Jul 07, 2015, 11:45:05 »
Is this what you mean by uneven visible bubbles over the blue color?

peterp

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #9 on: Jul 07, 2015, 11:02:27 »
  > Another question, if they not old, how come i can't find one like these on the net?
Because they were not necessarily mass-produced in porcelain factories. Even today, in Jingdezhen there are many small workshops that are hand-painting porcelain. They are unlikely to make large numbers.

Picture 118.jpg shows no bubbles, and the blue color is flat. The bubbles should be uneven in size and visible over the blue color, causing sometimes a slight blur in the edge, where the blue meets the white glaze. There should be 'some' bubbles. None of them means modern methods were used to remove them from the clay. Not sure about the rust spot, though.

The bottom picture is most conclusive. It is almost always the most indicative factor showing whether an item is old or newer.
This type of foot rim can only be from the 20th century. In addition, the radius connecting foot rim and interior base area is too pronounced. This also usually means 20th century, it can also mean that a paste injection process was used for making the body. Hand made porcelain has normally no radius, or only an almost imperceptible one caused by the glaze.
As to picture 135.jpg, this is definitely transfer printed. You will see that each segment (consisting of two rectangular spirals), in every aspect, resembles the neighbouring element exactly. That is because the same transfer source was used for each of them.

That is how it goes in the beginning. No one of those experienced in Chinese porcelain can say they never bought fakes or newer items. We all did in the beginning, and some do still so occasionally... we just learn from such mistakes and reduce the error ratio next time.    :-)

Thefinder

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #8 on: Jul 07, 2015, 09:11:46 »
Here's the pictures for the plates.

Thefinder

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Re: Unglazed Blue and White porcelain unmarked fish bowl planter
« Reply #7 on: Jul 07, 2015, 08:31:36 »
Thanks you for the tips! But is it possible that the bowl is a copy made from a long time ago? I've seen on an other site (i dont remember which one, cause i've seen so much on past 2 weeks) that is possible the maker's use transfer printing by hand to reproduce an older one? That would explain the rust spots on it. They really looks like the same on very old porcelains i've seen on . Here's more pictures from the rust spots on the fish bowl and the 3 plates. Another question, if they not old, how come i can't find one like these on the net?