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Author Topic: Help With Age On Blue Tray  (Read 3287 times)

kardinalisimo

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #12 on: Apr 21, 2014, 03:54:35 »
So from what I found out there were three ways the Chinese fired the pieces.
1. Upside down, which would leave the lips unglazed - Ding
2. On setters(rings, with spurs etc) that would allow the foot rim to be glazed - up until eraly Ming
3. Placing them straight on unglazed feet


Japanese export porcelain from 18th &  mid 19th century have several spur marks, post 1850 the number of spurs were reduced to mostly one till they fully disappeared. But I cannot find information if the Japanese would leave the feet unglazed when using supports?

No matter if the piece is Chinese or Japanese, why would there be unglazed foot rim and setter marks on the same bottom. Maybe to imitate old ware? Here is what I found:

From the Yongzheng period Chinese porcelain copying Japanese porcelain (Deshima plates) are found also with spur marks. During the Qianlong period this feature was a deliberate occurrence even if the item wasn't actually fired on supports to simulate the archaic look, i.e. Song copies or those wares inspired by them.

But still they don't say if these imitations had glazed or unglazed feet.
So, the only thing I can think of is that someone, Chinese or Japanese was trying to simulate older porcelain but did  not think that if there were spur marks then the foot rim should be glazed?




Stan

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #11 on: Apr 20, 2014, 12:59:54 »
I agree Peter the support points are the same on my chargers, that is a definite clue to being Japanese.

peterp

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #10 on: Apr 20, 2014, 11:27:22 »
Hi Stan,
If it were Chinese, I would think it is a new fake, judging by the underglaze blue. But the bottom is difficult to explain, even with a newer Chinese fake, I'm afraid.
I don't know from when this item is, exactly, but I have seen a considerable number of Ming and Qing style items, made in Japan, probably in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They could reproduce almost any blue hue and, as far as I know, started using western chemical pigments in the 19th century. China would probably also have been capable to do this in the 19th century, but locally mined pigments were more often used due to lower cost.
Actually, China used imported pigments already in the Yuan and early Ming dynasties for the more valuable items. But later switched to increased use of domestic pigments. (http://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/blue-pigments.html)
Manufacturing methods are rarely copied convincingly  to a degree on copies or fakes. Copying of decoration styles or colors would be simpler to do.
In this case, for me the support points seem to be a certain sign of a Japanese product.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #9 on: Apr 20, 2014, 10:32:39 »
Few more pics of the points. The insides look liked chipped.
Don't know how common is for the Japanese pieces but there are too many defects. Like that vessel looks like missing a lot of paint. By the way, right next to that blank spot there is a Swastika but that could be Chinese or Japanese.


Stan

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #8 on: Apr 20, 2014, 09:37:16 »
Thanks Peter, that is good reasoning about the points on the bottom, they are on all my large chargers but not on the small items, it is the blue that concerns me, I believe that the blue was imported to Japan and has a very distinct rich cobalt blue color not seen on this item.

peterp

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #7 on: Apr 20, 2014, 08:56:44 »
To expound on the three points, if you look at them with a magnifier, is there a small area without glaze, within these?  If yes, this is a Japanese made item. The presence of support points on the bottom - despite the presence of an unglazed foot rim - is a specialty of Japanese porcelain. Not all Japanese porcelain was made this way, though.
However, Chinese porcelain was never made this way. With Chinese porcelain either there is a completely glazed bottom with only small support points, or there is an unglazed foot rim, but not both.
Further, Japanese support points are usually larger, Chinese support points are only about the size of sesame seeds.

The decoration may have Chinese elements, but the shape is not common.
Some blue and white Chinese porcelain made in the 19th century had a boat shape, but the ends are higher. This specific type with a rim that is the same height all around is more typically found with Japanese porcelain...even today.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #6 on: Apr 20, 2014, 03:27:32 »
I am not sure if that is an exported to Japan piece made in China, the period is late 19th to early 20th c. From what I found,  the so called ko-sometsuke or Tianqi porcelain was exported during the decline in the Ming after the death of Wanli to the rise of Kangxi. They were usually potted in a rough manner with poorer clay and many flaws like the glaze would often flake off the biscuit body on rounded rims, which the Japanese called mushikui, earth worm nibbles.
I don't know if all of the above apply to the featured dish. I am also not sure if the Chinese continued to export blueware in the 19/20th century. Anyway, at least I learnt something new.

Stan

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #5 on: Apr 19, 2014, 23:39:34 »
This looks to be about late 19th century to early 20th century, had it been Japanese the blue would have been a different cobalt blue color, I am leaning towards Kardinalisimo opinion on Chinese export to Japan.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #4 on: Apr 19, 2014, 20:43:51 »
Could it be Ko-sometsuke, Chinese porcelain made for the Japanese market?

kardinalisimo

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #3 on: Apr 19, 2014, 20:34:57 »
I start thinking Japanese because of the shape. Cannot find Chinese pieces like this or maybe I am not using the right key words.
What exactly the three nipples or whatever they are would mean? Also, that foo dog looks to happy, not very common for Chinese, is it?

peterp

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Re: Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #2 on: Apr 19, 2014, 20:05:37 »
Not sure, but the three points on the bottom could indicate that it is Japanese.

kardinalisimo

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Help With Age On Blue Tray
« Reply #1 on: Apr 19, 2014, 12:33:46 »
Recent, Vintage, Older?
Thanks