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Author Topic: Large 18th century famille rose bowl  (Read 4487 times)

kardinalisimo

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #22 on: Aug 26, 2014, 11:18:27 »
Peter, can you tell me briefly what is this about?
http://topic.artron.net/topic/110114/
I am struggling with google translator. According to it, I see terms like Cloisonne, Pastel, Fencai Ci, Enamel
Thanks

calder

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #21 on: Aug 25, 2014, 18:41:38 »
Hi Stan that's a lovely bowl I was looking at something similar last week.
I will start a  new thread rather than hijacking this one.

peterp

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #20 on: Aug 25, 2014, 16:58:02 »
The problem may be that both are called "enamel" in English. Basically, falangcai enamel is thinner, and not necessarily transparent. This was developed from the enamel wares imported from the west, where the enamel is usually on a base of brass, copper or other metal. I think using the enamel on a porcelain base was a Chinese innovation. This started in the Kangxi reign, but basically it is separate from fencai, which was developed in the late Kangxi reign, early 18th century, also based on some western painting materials.
The enamel material is possibly different. I only know that fencai had glass powder, lead, etc. added, which make that enamel basically toxic. It is possible that Canton enamels used yet another type of enamel, but I have not enough information on that.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #19 on: Aug 25, 2014, 13:38:19 »
Peter, i am getting confused about Falangcai. I thought that this was the Fencai decoration during early Qing, when the enamels were transparent.
I know they started experimenting with it during Kangxi in the palace workshop  but what exactly are the characteristics of Falangcai.  Was there also Fencai decoration during early Qing?  Was Falangcai strictly made only for the court?

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #18 on: Aug 25, 2014, 10:54:50 »
Thank you Peter and kardinalisimo, Peter you always amaze me by your knowledge, so the glaze in this is Fencai it has a very heavy enamel when running your finger over the top surface on the inside, the outside is thin.

peterp

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #17 on: Aug 25, 2014, 10:03:39 »
As was already said, the foot rims of plates cannot be compared to those of other items.
The underside decoration of red bamboo is actually typical for the Jiaqing/Daoguang period.
Due to the perfect condition of the interior painting I have been asking myself if this could have been repainted later. Usually, fencai decorated wash basis have a fair amount of abrasion, etc., sometimes to a degree that the decoration is almost gone. This is of course due to daily use.

What concerns Falangcai, I recommend forgetting about this...unless a very high amount of money or  extraordinary luck is involved, it is difficult to ever get any!!!

Real falangcai of the imperial period was painted in the workshops inside the palace. The body was fired in JDZ, then the blanks were transported to the palace. Falangcai was not at all accessible to outsiders. Its production method seems to have been carefully guarded until the end of the empire. There was only a limited number of items made for the palace. These items should of course all have official/imperial marks. Usually, that type of enamel is very thin, not like fencai enamel that can be felt with the fingers because it contains glass powder.

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #16 on: Aug 25, 2014, 06:47:18 »
Thanks kardinalisimo for the site great information.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #15 on: Aug 25, 2014, 03:42:29 »
Well,
Fencai is what the Chinese call the overgrazed enamels decoration.
Here is a good read:
http://koh-antique.com/history/falang.htm
Then, you know, you have doucai, wucai etc.
Also, the new fencai, qianjiang
http://koh-antique.com/qj/qjmain.html

The 'famille' terms are  more westernized. Famille rose would be fencai with predominant rose color. But people seems to use that term on whatever.

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #14 on: Aug 25, 2014, 03:10:08 »
Your right Kardinlalisimo, yours is very similar, so is that what mine is Fencai?

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #13 on: Aug 25, 2014, 03:05:29 »
I will look at the one you posted, and yes on the bottom of mine the age signs look older and so dose the foot rim, am I wrong?

kardinalisimo

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #12 on: Aug 25, 2014, 02:43:52 »
Stan, are you saying the type of the bottom and the foot rim are common for Early Qing or just the base shows age that you think is older than Guangxu. Older how?
The question is if this type of decoration motif ever existed during Early Qing.
By the way, is not the base similar to the one on the basin I posted about a week ago?

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #11 on: Aug 25, 2014, 02:29:08 »
You will have to forgive me Peter and Kardinalisimo if I keep asking the same questions, eventually it will get through this thick head, but this bottom looks a little older than Guangxu, maybe your right kardinalisimo, maybe it is later decoration on older basin.

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #10 on: Aug 25, 2014, 02:05:02 »
Hi kardinalisimo, is that what you think that this is an older basin with guangxu decoration, it could be but I do not think so, it looks to me with a hands on inspection that  all the decoration and age signs are from one firing, but I am still learning about these types of decorations, so you could be right.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #9 on: Aug 25, 2014, 01:21:52 »
Stan, I think Peter said before the general rules for the bottoms of the  plates are just for the plates. I guess different rules applies for the different type of vessels. Plus, remember we discussed few times about newer decoration on old bodies.

Stan

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Re: Large 18th century famille rose bowl
« Reply #8 on: Aug 25, 2014, 00:33:15 »
Peter, is that a typical bottom on a bowl for that period, it looks like 18th century plates, it is done the same way, that is why I thought it was 18th century.