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Author Topic: Sunk Ship Blueware  (Read 3272 times)

kardinalisimo

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #18 on: Sep 07, 2014, 13:13:26 »
If you type
large crackle underglaze
in the search engine one the site you will find the topic

tonny joeswanto

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #17 on: Sep 07, 2014, 12:27:17 »
Mr cardinal,

Can you sent me the picture of the VOC. I can't open the link. 

tonny joeswanto

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #16 on: Sep 07, 2014, 11:53:03 »
I won't be argue..Mr Kardinal..it's your right to judge that the charger is fake...:) but in my opinion it is Real..

Here the one of good sample of annamese that is escavated from Trowan east java. Acctually there are many archeological site that the shard of yuan, ming and annamese, sukothai and aother south east asian ceramic  found in indonesia and other region.
So many erope and usa scaptic with only small group of asian faker and they come to judge all antik ceramic in southeast asia is fake. :)..I one of person don like fake Mr cardinal.

Please sea the shard that I have..

kardinalisimo

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #15 on: Sep 07, 2014, 11:36:17 »
Thanks. So, the pieces could indeed be from a ship wreck.
By the way, Tonny, you mentioned VOC. Can you take a look at
http://board.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/index.php/topic,610.msg2972.html#msg2972

I have few opinions that it is a reproduction and I am convinced now but it would be nice to hear yours as well. Is it an old replica or such are still made today?
Thanks

Stan

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #14 on: Sep 07, 2014, 10:55:15 »
Thanks tonny, it looked authentic to me to and very similar to the one I showed below as for as the bottom, the one I have came from a 500 year old ship wreck and the bottom on kardinalisimo's dish is very similar.

tonny joeswanto

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #13 on: Sep 07, 2014, 10:33:08 »
The asian art expecialy antique chinese antique ceramic was recogenazed by Europe and USA since WWI. And we know antique ceramic since we born because our parent preserve it and use it for dinning ware. (Qing dynasty, nyonya ware. Etc ) Also the ceramic from Arita japan, Delft holland, majolica..etc. We Indonesia are the colonial region by Dutch for 350 years. And VOC and Netherland indie goverment was the Traderman of ceramic from Japan and chinese in 17th century.

I see the charger bellow is annamese charger not fake charger. The black base is correct, the pale glaze, dull paint and motif indicated the annamese ceramic.
The annam kingdom in vietnam was occupied by yuan dynasty and Ming dynasty. The decoration indeed copied the chinese style. But clay and kiln has specification of southeast asian annamese kiln.

Nice charger I assumed from the picture that it's 14-15th century charger.

Stan

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #12 on: Sep 05, 2014, 09:30:19 »
Thanks for sharing that Peter, I would have never thought that they are faking even the sea creatures, cleaver fakers are.

peterp

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #11 on: Sep 05, 2014, 09:14:33 »
The Hoi An wares are basically Vietnamese.
They may have been made by Chinese potters, though. During the Ming dynasty Vietnamese porcelain resembled Chinese porcelain very much. That is probably because many of the Chinese potters emigrated there during one of the several Ming sea prohibitions (Ming bans).

Careful with the mollusks, etc., I did not say they are fake. It is that real ones may be stuck on. With the use of acetone this probably can be clarified. Some items were not even fired but are fully covered with maritime growth. I once saw one with little shells attached that looked the same as those we see on harbor walls, etc., which means the item was never in deeper waters, probably.

Also, never forget to look at the bottom and shape. It is often the decisive key to identification. The decoration on the underside would have to be Ming, if Chinese. But the base is not something that was common on Ming dynasty porcelain. Vietnamese porcelain of the period sometimes uses shapes that deviate slightly from the Ming porcelain shapes. This is not limited to Vietnamese porcelain. Some Japanese imitations of Chinese porcelain also show minor differences that hint to the different origin.

Stan

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #10 on: Sep 05, 2014, 08:17:07 »
I know Peter, these look familiar, I posted them on your site years ago, I said I bought them at a flea market for pennies to  the dollar and I removed the hoi an hoard sticker, at the time I wanted to see what you would say and I was blown away when you said could be something from the Hoi an hoard, I never doubted you since.

Stan

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #9 on: Sep 05, 2014, 08:04:18 »
bottom

Stan

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #8 on: Sep 05, 2014, 08:02:28 »
Hi Kardinalisimo, if they are all fake that is  a pretty good fake job esp. the one with the sea barnacles, I have two plates that came from the hoi an hoard, they have a sticker that says hoi an hoard I bought them at an auction bout 13 to 15 years ago, the bottom looks just like the bottom on your dish with the sea creatures.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #7 on: Sep 04, 2014, 10:29:59 »
Thanks.
The seller has no idea where the pieces came from. His story is that they belonged to his grandfather who collected Asian pieces together with artwork.  Absolutely sure that they are authentic but we've heard that many times. 

peterp

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #6 on: Sep 04, 2014, 07:31:31 »
Yes, but usually they do not cover the whole area; they rather appear in a few places to give the idea of water, the rest remains unpainted.

kardinalisimo

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #5 on: Sep 03, 2014, 23:35:29 »
Thanks Peter.
I did not know fakers are getting so creative.
It is strange that the shells were not removed which would mean that the pieces are from newly discovered ship wreck. I will let you know what is the sellers story if he reply.
Those horizontal lines on the vases, are they supposed to depict water? They kind of look to simple.

peterp

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Re: Sunk Ship Blueware
« Reply #4 on: Sep 03, 2014, 14:21:21 »
I believe this is all fake crap!  Don't believe what is said regarding shipwreck items, especially if the seller does not volunteer the information from which wreck it was, etc.
Most such items are auctioned and come from publicly known, legal sources. Other sources may sell fakes.
The plate is clearly a fake, trying to look like Yuan dynasty; it looks as if it was made in SE Asia, but not sure.
The barnacles and molluscs can be glued on, but another method is to submerge the fake items in nets in the water until the molluscs have settled on them. They are a bit too evenly distributed.
The vases look more like the real thing, but I still have doubts about them. Something seems not right, but I cannot pinpoint it. They are probably made in China, looking like export porcelain, but the quality of painting is lower.